“Christians in general hate to get rid of anything. One of the biggest things I had to do as a church revitalizer was to kill programs that were dead and nobody was willing to let them die…The CRC, as part of our own broader revitalization, needs to be able to have those kinds of conversations about churches…I would really encourage the CRC to focus on church planting AND renewal.” — Jason Ruis

Summary of This Episode

On this edition of the Messy Reformation Roundtables, Jason and Willy are joined by Rev. Dan De Graff and Rev. Matt Haan, pastor at First CRC of Rock Valley, for a conversation that seems like nobody wants to talk about—the realities behind the pastor shortage and declining membership in churches.

Dan kicks things off sharing from data he’s been tracking over the last decade. As of the recording, there are about 913 churches in the CRCNA (churches known to be well into a disaffiliation process are not part of that). Of those churches, 692 are in the United States and 221 in Canada—so, roughly 3:1 or 75% in the US and 25% in Canada. When it comes to sole or lead/senior pastor vacancies, there are 107-128. The low number is those that have become vacant in the last five calendar years and the higher number includes congregations that have been vacant even back into the 1990s. By percentage, 12-14% of our churches are vacant.

While not great—certainly showing a shortage—to break those down by country shows a bigger problem. 57-71 of the vacancies are in the U.S., meaning 8-10% of churches south of the border are looking for pastors. 50-57 of the vacancies are in Canada meaning 23-26% of churches north of the border are without a primary pastor.

Dan highlights Calvin Theological Seminary and Candidacy have been focused on raising up new leaders—the denomination is not ignorant of that, but how are we genuinely living into our binational identity when for such a significant portion of our denomination 1 in 4 churches remains without pastors? Both he and Matt believe, and Jason and Willy agree, classes and the denomination have a responsibility here.

Matt goes a step further and proposes when looking at the lifecycle of a church, churches need to consider not just how to find a pastor but are they in a place to find one. This spurs a discussion around churches with declining membership needing to consider a revitalization, replanting, or closing process. As the CRC has a revitalized passion for church planting, what about all these churches we already have?

Jason clarifies some of the terms. Planting a church typically means a new building, new location, and a new congregation (possibly with a core already established). Revitalization takes something that already is and seeks renewal. To replant is a hard work—to take an existing congregation, possibly close, and re-plant a church there. Matt builds on this saying closing is something more churches need to think about—not to disparage small churches or to communicate failure, but have circumstances or context so changed that their season is concluded? Connected to vacancies, it may be inappropriate to call a pastor.

Willy asks if we’re using numeric benchmarks, how long should a church be at a certain point to change statuses? The group agrees that’s difficult to pinpoint. Every church is different. Every setting is different. Rural churches in truly small towns are willing to stick it out for decades. Sometimes small numeric growth with some changes can yield a lot of life. Sometimes a fight will have such irreconcilable damage that a sizable congregation can be decimated fairly quickly. This is where classes can have such a strong impact. Especially through good church visitors, that’s where hard but caring conversations can happen.

Willy also asks what the benefits and negatives are if a church would come under care of another church and council. What he’s referencing is Church Order Article 38d and its supplement. A council and congregation can decide to revert to unorganized status (effectively, emerging—the same category of a church plant in the CRC), and a classis should help consider that if and when membership is below 45, unable to provide for leadership, or unable to meet financial obligations. Jason notes it can be really healthy to see a healthy church’s leadership and life. He truly sees it, not as a punishment, but to bring health, resources, and discernment.

Matt builds on that with the desire to develop and have clearer terminology and paths in the CRC. If churches can be categorized by “plant,” “emerging,” “organized,” “revitalization,” “replant,” and “closed,” it would help churches know where they are and what they should be doing. There could be a change of attitude from just thinking with self-pity about size or failure. Dan adds that we need to take this seriously. Church planting often gets deemed as the “sexy” work, but this is necessary work, too. Jason highlights there should be a focus on both church planting and church revitalization. He’s seen in Baptist circles the desire to “increase the number of planted churches and decrease the number of dying churches.” One of the ways you decrease the dying, though, is to end or kill things that are already dead—whether that’s in churches or denominational organizations. Willy concludes the conversation this time with a parting shot on the Dutch “don’t throw away” mentality—sometimes we need to throw away or end so we can focus elsewhere well.

“You’ll never rise to a higher level in your public prayer life than what you’re doing in your private prayer life…You’ll never rise to a higher level in your preaching than in your own personal reading of God’s word…If we are in the word, we can bring the word. If we are in prayer, we can lead in prayer. If we’re walking beside people that the Holy Spirit is bringing to life—those are the things we’re called to.” — Harry Frielink

Summary of This Episode

Back on The Messy Reformation podcast this week, we have Willy and Rev. Harry Frielink, pastor at Covenant CRC in Barrie, ON. Throughout this episode, we get to hear about some of Harry’s theological influences or inspirations. Early on, working in camp ministry, he credits the training of Matthew Kingswood, a Reformed Presbyterian pastor, to be in the Word. He also has also appreciated Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s encouragement to do life together. Along the way, he’s found books on being a disciplined Christian and the personal nature of God has helpful.

Another voice has been Paul David Tripp, whose book “Dangerous Calling” he references when Willy asks about struggles. One of the biggest struggles that he’s faced and many pastors face is being in and nurturing friendships with the body of believers rather than feeling outside or above. Harry stresses the importance of having friends and modeling good Christian friendship. He also notes balancing being a pastor while also honoring the calling of husband and father.

Harry prompts conversation around two of the major divisive topics in the CRCNA over the last 30 or so years—human sexuality and the women in ecclesiastical office decisions. When it comes to women as elders and pastors, he points out that can be a difficult thing to navigate in some congregations, while others don’t wrestle much with that. In terms of the Human Sexuality Report (HSR), he saw it not as wanting to just have a culture war over homosexuality, but rather an opportunity to speak to the whole spectrum of human sexuality, recognizing where there is sin and brokenness, and seeing how the gospel addresses it. He sees how the CRC dealt with these two things as being different. Willy adds, though, there is an important piece of how one’s view of the authority of Scripture factors in and having that inform our opinions rather than experience. We need to be charitable, but know what our foundation is.

Harry’s been to Synod twice, back in the early 2010s, as a Classis Huron delegate, but has followed Synods closely in recent years. He’s thankful, while somewhat surprised at what’s gone on. He mentions Paul Vander Klay’s commentary capturing how the establishment of the CRC and The Banner may have viewed conservatives as present but quiet in the aftermath of the women in office decisions of the 1990s, but that’s changed in last decade. He’s thankful to see young pastors taking a stand as well as laypeople. He and Willy agree the third mark of the church likely will continue to come up, but it is much larger conversation around discipleship and discipline. We need to be walking with people to know how to handle that well. As he looks at Classis Toronto as well, he names the steep decline in membership over the last 20 years, but he sees the present being a time where those who are left recognize it’s time to get to work on the discipleship and evangelism fronts.

His final words are an encouragement to “blow on the live embers.” He describes that, especially for pastors, as needing to make sure we give priority to where and who the Spirit may be working on. Harry would have us listen and walk with people, remain in God’s Word if we are to bring God’s Word, and remain praying if we are to lead people in prayer.

“I feel the church as much as the seminary was a training ground for me. I didn’t expect the seminary to prepare me in ways that a school can’t—but the church should.” —Harry Frielink

Summary of This Episode

This week on the Messy Reformation, Willy is joined by Rev. Harry Frielink, pastor at Covenant Christian Reformed Church in Barrie, ON. Harry previously served Exeter CRC, also in southern Ontario, though his seminary experience brought him into the U.S. He began his MDiv. Studies at Reformed Theological Seminary (RTS) in Charlotte, NC. He shares a deep appreciation for the systematic theology courses, which were deep but always included a pastoral application, as well as the biblical studies courses. While he grew up in the RCA, “home” for his calling was the desire to serve in a Dutch immigrant community. He attended Calvin Theological Seminary, which broadened his connection to others in our denomination, and he also valued how it prepared him for ministry in the CRC.

One of the themes in Harry’s responses is a strong experience as an elder himself in the past and inviting the elders in his charge to also be involved in ministry. Before becoming a pastor, his service as an elder involved him in leading some worship services and teaching Catechism. He goes on to share that his ministry at Covenant has brought him into relationship with especially new or young Christians, but he can’t do all the work himself. He feels appreciated by the church and their desire has been for teaching and preaching to be his primary focus. He enjoys that as well as helping nurture others, but it takes committed leaders ministering together.

Willy invites Harry to share about his classical experience and involvement. Harry is in Classis Toronto, which has had its fair share of public “controversies” in recent decades. He frames it well, “Some of the challenges would definitely include a reticence to really engaged in the theological issues behind the controversies in the Christian Reformed Church.” He’s seen good conversation shift “political.” While they’ve struggled with that as a classis, he sees that more broadly in the denomination as well. There’s this wrestling with wanting to engage in ministry together but the deliberative aspect of classis and synod has been lacking. Willy and Harry spend some time also talking about recent disaffiliations and the weighty nature of those processes; while often expected, those don’t make anyone happy and Willy points out the necessity of love, charity, and boldness in the process.

The guys also get into what they’ve seen and learned about the CRC. Harry points out a generational shift in home and church. Growing up in the RCA and seeing the CRC, he appreciated the devotion to God’s Word and practicing family devotions. He cites in the past that there seemed to be a greater knowledge of Scripture and the confessions that has decreased over time. He’s hopeful about the direction of the CRC, and the change of course to prioritize those in recent years. Culturally and practically, though, it will take some work to strengthen individual commitments in those areas.

Join us next time as we hear more about struggles and changes in the CRC as well as pastoral ministry.

“The reality is, in a church, people want to be fed by the same hand that’s holding their hand next to the bedside…What I mean is the person that they see on Sunday morning is the same person they want to be visiting them and caring for them and walking alongside of them in…whatever their struggle may be.” —Shaun Furniss

Summary of This Episode

Welcome back to part 2 of Jason’s conversation with Rev. Shaun Furniss, one of the co-pastors of Trinity CRC in Sparta, MI. We pick up the conversation around Christian counseling and pastoral care, which continues throughout this whole episode as well, addressing the relationship of a pastor with their elders. One of the difficulties pastors often express is feeling alone and having no one to share what’s going on in ministry with. To bring everything home to a spouse is inappropriate and can cause problems for one’s spouse as a member of a congregation. However, in our polity, pastors can and should develop relationships with their elders by which they can share when they are feeling overwhelmed. It’s not just for the pastor to open up, but it’s teaching the elders how to do ministry as well and that the pastor values their contributions.

Jason takes it a step further, and asks Shaun what advice he would give to pastors and elders who are trying to care well for their congregation. Shaun’s response may remind listeners of what we heard from the recent STM roundtable—get to know your people, your districts, and simply be approachable. We should be showing those we’re shepherding that they are not just “a congregant,” but we know who they are, we know their name, we care about them.” He shares that CCEF (Christian Counseling & Educational Foundation) has solid, biblical, practical materials that are worth checking out, and encourages doing the work of looking for local resources. Whether in your church or known by other churches around you, counseling and care shouldn’t feel like something we need to do alone. Jason alludes to a quote from John Calvin who said the care of souls is so overwhelming that it’s not to be done on one’s own; that burden care speaks to why God’s given the church elders.

The conversation turns to the necessity and value of relationships between those being counseled or cared for and those who are doing that. Shaun points out how even in the co-pastor arrangement at Trinity, it’s less about specialized roles and more about sharing the responsibility. He shares, “The reality is, in a church, people want to be fed by the same hand that’s holding their hand next to the bedside…What I mean is the person that they see on Sunday morning is the same person they want to be visiting them and caring for them and walking alongside of them in…whatever their struggle may be.” He later states, “It’s that horizontal element to that relationship where you’re building the relationship with them, but ultimately you’re pointing them to a relationship with Christ (the vertical relationship). He’s the One who’s going to ultimately transform their heart. He’s the One who’s going to help break that addiction. He’s the One who’s going to remove their sin. He’s the one who’s going to relieve that guilt and that loneliness and those sort of things that we struggle with…So…we need to make sure that we’re maintaining the balance.” He goes on to highlight the importance of being aware and avoiding a savior complex.

Jason puts that in terms of actual pastoral care relationships that he’s had—namely, young people who’ve contemplated and attempted to suicide. He talks about how that can, understandably, keep you awake at night and feel so overwhelming. He’s had to heed the advice of a well-seasoned pastor who reminded him to rely on the Lord as the fixer of problems, not ourselves. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t care, but sometimes we do need to go to bed, to get necessary sleep, and trust God will work. Shaun beautifully reminds us that’s a way to rely on the baptismal promises of God. He has called us to shepherd his flock, but we are shepherding them to him. The guys agree—pastoral ministry, and God through it, will humble you over and over again, causing us to rely on and cry out to the Lord.

Jason shares a final thought from a book on prayer that framed prayer as flowing from helplessness. People are more likely to pray when they feel helpless, and they are likely to have prayerless times when they don’t think they need help. He’s learned, though, we’re always helpless and not in control—that shouldn’t drive us to fear, but to a powerful God who provides for and leads us. Shaun gives an example of a time when he’s flipped the idea “God’s not going to give me more than I can handle” to “God won’t give you anything that he can’t handle. He uses these often heartbreaking, difficult circumstances to show his power and his grace and his healing hand in these very difficult circumstances.” Shaun closes by expressing gratitude for the ministry of The Messy Reformation and opening listeners’ eyes to the work God is doing throughout the CRC. He reminds us again, “…When it comes to pastoral care...people don’t care what you know until they know that you care, and the more that you can build those relationships to build a bridge upon which the gospel can then go across, that’s truly where you get to see the beauty of God working.”

“True Christian counseling, I think, is at its core, it’s discipleship. It’s taking the gospel and applying it to the unique pains, hurts, and sins of an individual, and then walking them to the cross…When you walk into that room where you’re counseling someone, you’re not the true counselor. The Holy Spirit is, and he’s given us his word. That is the means by which he is going to bring that healing.” — Shaun Furniss

Summary of This Episode

What does it mean to truly care for the souls of people in your congregation? In this first part of a two-episode conversation, Jason sits down with Pastor Shaun Furniss of Trinity CRC in Sparta, Michigan, to dig into the often neglected art of pastoral care and counseling. Shaun brings a background unlike most pastors in the CRC. He did not grow up in the church. His first experience was a Roman Catholic mass in second grade, where he was enthralled by the transcendent beauty of what he saw. A season of involvement there gave way to confusion and distance when he couldn’t reconcile the theology at his confirmation class. It was not until a college Bible study led him through the Heidelberg Catechism that the Lord drew him to faith.

That background, along with an early crisis when a teenager disclosed a suicide attempt to him within his first months as a youth director, pushed Shaun toward serious training in pastoral counseling. He went on to earn a Master’s in Marriage and Family Therapy and Counseling alongside his Master of Divinity from Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi. Today he serves as co-pastor at Trinity CRC, splitting all pastoral responsibilities 50-50 with long-tenured Pastor CJ den Dulk—a model that reflects a deep conviction that the care of souls cannot be done by one man alone.

The conversation quickly moves to the heart of the matter: what is Christian counseling, really? Shaun makes the case plainly. True Christian counseling is discipleship. It is taking the gospel and applying it to the unique pains, hurts, and sins of an individual, walking them to the cross, and helping them in their walk with the Lord. Shaun affirms this without hesitation. All pastoral care, he says, is just discipleship.

But there is a problem. The church has largely abdicated this work. The default move in too many congregations—and in too many seminaries—is to farm it out. And when you do that, you hand your congregant over to someone whose worldview you may not know, whose objectives may differ from yours, and whose methods may actively undermine what the gospel requires. Shaun is blunt about what he’s seen: what often passes for Christian counseling is humanistic counseling with a prayer at the end. He estimates only about 10% of counselors he has encountered meet the standard he would feel comfortable recommending. The seminary culture that shaped many current pastors gave them one class on pastoral care and one running joke: just refer it out.

Shaun argues that pattern is a delinquency of responsibility. Even when outside help is warranted—in cases of abuse, or when counseling someone of the opposite sex—the pastor remains the shepherd of the soul. You bring someone alongside. You do not hand off and walk away.

But what does good pastoral care actually look like in practice? The biggest misconception pastors carry, Shaun says, is that they need to have the answer immediately. They walk into a counseling situation feeling pressure to solve. But before any solution can land, trust must be built. People don’t care what you know until they know that you care. The person who comes to you in pain is not a transmission that needs to be fixed. They want to be heard, understood, known. When that relational foundation is laid, the truth you eventually speak will actually be believed.

Shaun frames the core of pastoral counseling around four root issues: guilt, fear, anger, and loneliness. Every situation is unique, every story has variables—but at bottom, nearly everyone who comes for help is wrestling with one of these. And the scriptures give us the answers to all four.

The episode closes on what may be its most striking moment. Shaun reflects on his experience as a hospice chaplain during seminary and the lesson that has never left him: the ministry of presence. People don’t always need the right thing said to them. They need someone to be there. One of the evil one’s primary tactics in suffering is isolation—convincing people that no one knows what they are going through, no one has been where they are. The presence of a pastor, a shepherd, someone who walks in and says, “I’m not going away—I don’t know every step either, but we’re going to walk this together”—that presence is itself healing.

And when the situations are overwhelming? The true counselor is the Holy Spirit. He has given us his Word as the means of healing. The pastor is simply the instrument. “I’ve never fixed anyone, I’ve never saved anyone, but by the grace of God, he’s allowed me to be a part of what he’s doing.”

“…If people are worried that the people they don’t trust are going off the deep end in terms of loving and wanting to follow the Scriptures…you have to…remind each other…hopefully, they are wanting to be loyal to the Bible. Some of their fears may be unfounded…Talk to each other instead of about each other…And then pray, pray, pray…Get people to pray together…for each other and not just about each other.” —Roger Sparks

Summary of This Episode

On this episode of The Messy Reformation, we pick up part two of the roundtable with Revs. Harv Roosma and Roger Sparks, Specialized Transitional Ministers (STMs) in the CRCNA. While not every church that an STM is called into is a “problem church,” there are some. As we’ve heard the role of the STM is listening and helping, including being equipped for difficult conversations, Jason asks about churches that aren’t as ready as they might have thought to engage those conversations. Harv offers the wisdom of when that happens, it takes some time, trust, and persistence. Both he and Roger note there are times when disagreement arises. Roger shares, “…One of our goals is…if people disagree, I want them to understand why they disagree and why the other person sees things their way.” While they’re not always able to nurture that understanding or trust, it’s a beautiful thing when successful.

Jason follows up by asking what some of the common issues that STMs regularly encounter are. Roger kicks it off with one that’s “easy”—communication. When people aren’t trusting or talking with each other in a church, there’s likely to be problems. Harv adds to that significant decline in attendance, gender matters, undertrained leadership, and ambiguity of vision. All, or at least many, of these can tie back into communication and trust issues. So, Jason asks how churches can work on trust, to which Roger responds essentially you have to care about the person you’ve had differences with. “…If people are worried that the people they don’t trust are going off the deep end in terms of loving and wanting to follow the Scriptures…you have to…remind each other…hopefully, they are wanting to be loyal to the Bible. Some of their fears may be unfounded…Talk to each other instead of about each other…And then pray, pray, pray…Get people to pray together…for each other and not just about each other.”

We hear a lot about the difficult situations, and so Willy asks what the joys of being an STM are. Harv names first the relationships that are nurtured quickly and “developing trust and helping people to talk honestly,” including about such important things as forgiveness. Roger adds to that the joy, or honor, of being someone who others share their troubles, trials, and joys to. Following up on Harv’s point, “You come as strangers, and through the miracle of the gospel and fellowship, you leave as friends…That’s a great joy, I love it.”

Dan invites Harv and Roger to give some advice to those of us pastors who are in traditional pastorates: what should we be doing so that our churches can avoid becoming a church that needs an STM in the future? Roger encourages honesty and communication—it can be that simple. If there are problems, go and talk to that person. He adds, “Don’t give people a stick to hit you with…If you say something, follow through, be consistent…And love the Bible and love people…They’re going to know…to sense that.” Harv encourages pastors and churches to “…continue clarifying vision…keep that sharp…make sure that there is a gospel focus.” He reiterates the basics of training leadership, addressing issues, communication, and accountability. If pastors humbly focus on these things while relying on the Holy Spirit, it goes a long way.

Jason picks up on the communication thread and encourages elders and deacons, not just pastors, to seek good communication. Roger shares one of the principal things is transparency and for councils to understand the majority of their work is public. Willingness to be transparent shows the people they’re loved. Jason builds on that, “If the congregation feels like the council is hiding information from them, then they lose trust and trust is really hard to get back.” Harv also shares the strategy of moving from accusatorial thinking when there’s disagreement to thinking about solutions and the potential benefit of listening groups.

That brings us to the end of our episode and the opportunity for final words. Roger shares, “Don’t think of [an STM’s help] as a stigma…a black mark against you. Look at it as a way that God is providing for some stability, hopefully, and leadership in a time of transition in the life of a church…The resources are there, and we just want to be a blessing to the churches that we help out in.” Harv builds on that , “When churches have had [an STM], they see that as a positive experience…a good thing…a healthy thing, and it can be a really, really joyful time.” He also encourages celebrating the good things that are happening in our churches and denomination with what God is doing and where he’s taking us. Jason adds a closing plug to any pastors who may be considering becoming STMs, to reach out to Roger or Harv, or to Thrive.

“When [a church invites] in an STM, what they’re saying is, ‘We want this person but also we’re willing to look at things. We’re going to be open-minded. We’re going to hear hard questions, and we’re going to deal with stuff.’ So they have prepared…and [an STM] can be a little bit more assertive…You have the freedom and the platform to deal with issues that maybe have been there but not talked about.” —Harv Roosma

Summary of This Episode

Jason, Willy, and Dan are back for a roundtable with Rev. Harv Roosma and Rev. Roger Sparks. The focus of the conversation is the ministry of Specialized Transitional Ministers (https://www.crcna.org/pcr/stm). (STMs) in the CRCNA. STMs usually are experienced ministers. Both Harv and Roger served in “traditional pastorates” for over twenty years in congregations in the U.S. and Canada before pursuing this work.

If you’re wondering what kind of churches do STMs pastor in and support, you’re probably not alone. As we look at the landscape of the CRC in the past few years, there are a lot of pastoral vacancies as well as churches finding themselves in difficult or contentious situations. Vacant churches typically call upon other pastors or those licensed to exhort to fill their pulpit each week, or they may hire an interim pastor, while they search for their next pastor. STMs have special training and support that a church hires to help the congregation through things before the search for their next pastor. Roger shares that the congregations who benefit from their work aren’t always in trouble or having problems; it can be that they’ve had a long-term pastor. “We were given some training and so we have some tools…that we can use to help churches think about vision and mission…[We provide] on-site experienced pastoral help to guide a church through a time of transition.” Harv adds that when they’re called in, it’s to look at things carefully.

Willy asks what the commitment of a church who hires or calls an STM is like. Roger shares that it’s typically a one-year commitment (which can be extended), and it is more expensive than just paying for weekly pulpit supply. The model they work from is typically in six-month sections. For the first part, STMs are getting to know and helping the church, being a pastor and support. From there, they’re working to set up the search committee, to prepare a ready church for their next pastor, and certainly continuing to love that church. Harv shares part of their work also involves narrowing down a list of priorities supplied by the church—so STM work is individualized to the church. He mentions their work can also lead to the conclusion of closing a local church.

Jason invites Harv and Roger to share what the training and equipping of an STM is. Harv did his training through Interim Ministry Network, which had four or five day intensives with a group of pastors, in which you’d look at the history and DNA of a church as well training to look for dynamics of change. For tools, he shares that STMs often do “appreciative inquiries” and “asset mapping.” Roger highlights learning about differentiation and avoiding triangulation—for a church where there is trouble, the STM must “stay just a little bit at arm’s length.” We also hear about an annual conference or retreat that STMs can gather and go over struggles and give advice or encouragement. They also have STM small groups that they connect with one another throughout the year by Zoom. Both the preparation and the continued connections have been really beneficial to them.

We close out the episode with the guys responding to Jason asking to lay out some of the differences between a traditional pastorate and being brought in as an STM. Harv goes right to the heart of things, “When [a church invites] in an STM, what they’re saying is, ‘We want this person but also we’re willing to look at things. We’re going to be open-minded. We’re going to hear hard questions, and we’re going to deal with stuff.’ So they have prepared…and [an STM] can be a little bit more assertive…You have the freedom and the platform to deal with issues that maybe have been there but not talked about.” He shares how there’s not a fear of being fired because your job is to uncover stuff. Roger adds, it’s not all about the talking or advice that they bring, but STM work involves a lot of listening. Doing so much of that does make it a bit difficult to leave after such a short time, but they’re prepared for that.

Join us next time as we hear more about working through difficult issues in churches and what pastors in traditional churches can do to serve their people well.

“We need to trim back…This is a normal aspect of renewal and reformation and revitalization…Everything expands, and then somebody eventually has to make some hard decisions to make some cuts…It’s going to hurt, [but] it’s not…personal.” —Jason Ruis

“If you have a mind for the church…for further casting vision in the CRC…if you see some of these positions start opening up or…a COD position…or another board or committee position…I would encourage you very much, do it…That’s where a lot of this work…is getting done.” —Willy Krahnke

Summary of This Episode

Jason, Willy, and Dan are back for the second part of their conversation on The Messy Reformation. Jason brings up the recommendation coming from the COD to Synod 2026 that synod meetings would be held every other year instead of every year. Willy, a delegate on the Council of Delegates, shares that this came out of the need to steward declining financial resources. He speaks passionately against it. He views Synod not just as a delegated body but as the church. We’re called to gather, this is part of that, the delegates are called by God—and this would shrug that off. He points out the number of COD meetings wouldn’t decrease; it would remain at six in two years. “How self-important have we made the COD?...Is that where the authority should lie in our denomination?” He also suggests, “…A recommendation to have synod every other year coming out of a ‘war’ like we’ve just had is foolish.”

Dan and Jason agree with Willy, and don’t hear a lot of positive talk around the recommendation. However, Dan thinks it could be approved by Synod because of the low commitment atmosphere that he perceives in the denomination. This means more people having to do even less, that may appeal to some. Willy urges that for those who already feel disconnected, this signals more authority and work going to Grand Rapids—it’s not the way to build trust and connection. We’ve just had these “Gather” events and celebrated getting together, but we’re going to gather less now—how does that make sense?

Jason picks up the imagery of ships that is connected with a classis, and wonders how this recommendation would actually help us row in the same direction. He believes it will “undo the possibility of bringing better unity…vision…focus, and direction to our denomination.” Taking years off due to COVID did not seem positive—“Things build up. Politics happen.” It seems like this is just about money, but there are other ways to cut dollars and cents. We shouldn’t do it in the wrong places. Again, we need a strong and clear vision, or else cuts are made in the wrong places. He shares, “…We need to trim back…This is a normal aspect of renewal and reformation and revitalization…Everything expands, and then somebody eventually has to make some hard decisions to make some cuts…It’s going to hurt, [but] it’s not…personal.”

After that lengthy conversation, Jason brings up a recent positive change in the CRC—Lora Copley being hired as the interim director of The Banner. One of the signs of the change is a recent article written by Herb Schreur (https://www.thebanner.org/columns/2026/01/the-next-first-step). Jason and Dan highlight that we need people to keep stepping up and to be willing to serve in various positions and to write. Dan also notes, “It’s going to take the support now of the Abide-minded folks…to go back to The Banner to make this work.” For those who like the direction the CRC is moving in after the last few years, we’ve got to be willing to give things a chance and support. Willy builds on that, “…If you have a mind for the church…for further casting vision in the CRC…if you see some of these positions start opening up or…a COD position…or another board or committee position…I would encourage you very much, do it…That’s where a lot of this work…is getting done.”

Dan’s comments bring us toward the conclusion of the episode. He talks about the sense of “calling” he’s heard from Sam Vanhuizen, a member and officebearer in Classis Lake Superior. We want to see the priesthood of believers on display, that not only the officebearers in the CRC matter but everyone has a role to play that God has called them to. Jason points out that the priesthood of believers and ecclesiology—topics that keep coming up in our discussions—were major tenets for the Reformers. All of us hope that there are many more years left for the CRC, but we can’t be lazy. Willy offers a call to act boldly, courageously, prayerfully, and to understand you’re under the sovereignty of a big God.

“The last two years revealed there hasn’t been vision here for a long time…We’ve been coasting around. We’ve got all these ships sailing together…but are we actually sailing together? And who’s helping keep us together? He clarifies, he’s not looking for a CRC pope, but a leader who is excited and passionately Reformed and will cast vision.” —Jason Ruis

Summary of This Episode

This week on The Messy Reformation, Jason, Willy, and Dan give an update on their lives and what’s happening in the CRC. Dan continues to pastor the people of Baldwin CRC, and is looking forward to a sabbatical for rest, refreshment, and considering God’s call on his life this summer. He’s also going to be joining the Candidacy office, Calvin Theological Seminary representatives, and CMLT servants from across the denomination for a gathering in Phoenix this week, and plans to attend the Coram Deo Conference in March. Willy shares the big thing in terms of his church life at Pease CRC was the installation of Rev. Brad Bierma this past fall. He also shares from his involvement on the Council of Delegates that they have been talking about consolidating classes and a recommendation to switch to biennial synods. On the EIRC, he’s also part of the subcommittee looking at our relationship with the RCA. Jason has continued to adjust to his new position, primarily with Central Wisconsin Christian School as well as being an associate pastor. They’ve had a difficult loss in the school community that he’s grateful to have been able to help walk the school through that.

Jason poses the question of what’s the feel throughout the CRC at the beginning of 2026? Willy frames it well, “Trying to search for and fight and establish our identity…We’ve established what we’re against, and now…we’re having a hard time figuring out exactly what we stand for.” Dan alludes to an article published on “The Aquila Report” blog from 2018 (written by Rev. Paul T. Murphy, not Aaron Vriesman)—link here—, which talked about how the URC established their identity as not being CRC but had to figure out what the URC is. “I sense…an unsettling quietness…The fight or work is unknown.” He shares he feels like things have settled down, allowing people to focus on other work, but some are wondering what we did. He doesn’t think it’s necessarily about what we did, but an uncertainty of where we’re going. Jason shares a bit from Eugene Peterson’s “The Pastor” that after a big action, people can sense accomplishment but then not know what to do next. He agrees, rebuilding is about finding our identity.

Dan shares something he picked up from Patrick (not Peter) Lencioni’s “The Five Dysfunctions of a Team” related to some classis work he’s doing. He’s discovered it’s possible that a classis can’t truly be a team, and likely that applies to the CRC as well. While we may think and say we want a team mentality, is it possible we were so focused on reaching certain conclusions that we didn’t think or tend to results beyond. This attention to organizational terms seems to be part of a generational shift that hasn’t been present before in the CRC. Jason picks that up, “The last two years revealed there hasn’t been vision here for a long time…We’ve been coasting around. We’ve got all these ships sailing together…but are we actually sailing together? And who’s helping keep us together? He clarifies, he’s not looking for a CRC pope, but a leader who is excited and passionately Reformed and will cast vision.”

Willy “tips his hat” to Zach King, our General Secretary, for the work he’s done, especially when the Office of General Secretary has been tasked with so much by synods. He redirects, “...The denominational leaders we should be looking to are our ministers [and] elders,” but he also names that having a vision is not the only struggle but figuring out who’s vision. Dan highlights the reality of that. We have around 950 churches and pastors, so how or who gets to pick the vision. He suggests working through classes, which at least boils it down to 49. Willy sees the benefit there of being able to identify and share from the diversity of gifts and focus. We’ve got to figure out how to share across classes, though.

Jason prods on, asking for solution ideas. Willy states, “I personally love the idea of classes getting together…not even of the same region.” Jason thinks of strong leadership, like a football coach, who looks over everything, casts a vision, encourages and persuades to see how what one person, church, or classis is doing can help another. The three talk a bit about some of the gatherings that do take place outside of regions–the Gathering initiative, classical clerk conferences, the Candidacy-CMLT gathering, and others like those. Dan suggest that Thrive should focus on making connections versus making materials, but points out one of the biggest obstacles is buy-in. At some point, pastors, officebearers, church members, churches, and classes need to buy-in. Jason shares that he doesn’t have the solution, and he recognizes there are leaders looking, but there’s a need for change.

“Continue to find the joy even in the hard moments...There has been joy in the re-establishing trust. Don’t lose sight, too, of the ordinary joys in your local church…Find the joys in the work that God is doing, whether that is denominationally [or locally], as we seek to build what God has entrusted to us.” —Cam Oegema

Summary of This Episode

Welcome back to The Messy Reformation for part two of Willy and Dan’s conversation with Rev. Cam Oegema, co-pastor at Bethel CRC in Listowel, ON. After talking about how things are in Classis Huron, Dan asks how Cam perceives “the Canadian context” and if or how it’s different from the United States in our binational denomination. Cam recognizes there are differences, as could be seen in the handguns discussion at Synod 2025. However, he shares, “There are certain pockets within Canada that make more of it than there is…like Towards Canada…We’re not this…monolithic…group-think that is going a certain way.” He doesn’t think of Americans as all being or thinking a certain way either. He does see a difference in that Canadians tend to be more willing to disagree but Americans can also disagree and be together. He states clearly, “It’s not my nationality that determines my faith; it’s my Savior.”

Willy shifts gears and asks Cam to take a stab at what phase we’re in as a denomination. He describes it as “a feeling-out process.” “There was a lot of hay made about trust…We’re learning how to trust each other again.” He recognizes it will likely take time, and can be done through repeated contact through classis meetings and the Canadian National Gathering.

He also points out that the CRC needs to think about where it’s going in this post-Christian era. Numbers are shrinking, and at least partially then, finances shrink. He feels we’ve set plans for what we want to do, “Now we’re just figuring out the best way to do the work well. For me, that’s kind of a hopeful place to be because I can look ahead but I’m also looking back and realizing, “Hey, this is what the Lord has brought us through [and] this is what the Lord has brought us to….He’s doing something good.” Willy shares an appreciation for signs of faithfulness among churches that may have been struggling while also naming the rebuilding of trust is likely to take consistency over several years.

Willy invites Cam to share what challenges he think we’ll be facing in the next five or so years. Cam shares a heartfelt summary of the importance of ministry to young adults. Generations have had different experiences, something things coming easier than others. Right now, young adults are facing economic issues, social media pressures, and mental health issues, and he wonders if many truly are adequately prepared for adulthood. “It’s such a formative time in life, because a lot of these guys really get to figure out [who they are], this is where I’m gifted, and they get to have people come alongside of them…” He describes these as not just “out in the world” issues, but they matter for the church and how we disciple well in a holistic perspective—spiritually, physically, mentally. He highlights and we would encourage especially Canadian churches, youth leaders, and young adults to check out the Young Adult Winter Retreat held in Woodstock, ON each January (Insert link: https://www.facebook.com/YARetreat?ref=br_tf).

For his final thoughts, Cam encourages us, “Continue to find the joy even in the hard moments...There has been joy in the re-establishing trust. Don’t lose sight, too, of the ordinary joys in your local church…Find the joys in the work that God is doing, whether that is denominationally [or locally], as we seek to build what God has entrusted to us.”

"I've just been in the CRC my whole life, but this is what it means to be a member of a Christian reformed church... Am I just going to church? Am I just hoping to lead a congregation somewhere, or do I want to take on that name with all that that means?... Going from that place of, okay, this was what I grew up into, to this is my denomination now for sure... When you go from a place where it's okay, I'm just in something, to now I'm really a part of something... the passion really comes out." —Cameron Oegema

Summary of This Episode

On this episode of The Messy Reformation, Willy and Dan are joined by Cam Oegema, co-pastor at Bethel CRC in Listowel, ON, where he’s been serving since 2023. Cam shares that he is a lifer in the Christian Reformed Church and mainly in southern Ontario. He grew up in London, ON, attended Redeemer University, split his MDiv. between Heritage Seminary (a Baptist school in Cambridge, ON) and Calvin Theological Seminary. He pursued ministry having some external call prompts from a pastor during his teenage years as well as his dad but wasn’t necessarily a committed or great student. Seminary put him to work.

Willy asks where his love for CRC polity came from, which Cam points back to the last decade. As the HSR (Human Sexuality Report) discussions were ramping up, preparing to enter ministry pushed him to examine that. He found himself looking at what it means to be CRC, to live out this Christian Reformed accent as a Christian and pastor. Going to Classis meetings as well as Synods helped solidify some of his desire to work with and be more involved in these conversations.

One of the places you may know or remember Cam from is the Abide Project reports from Synod 2025 when it was hosted at Redeemer in Ancaster, ON. Dan asks how he got connected and what it’s meant for his ministry. Cam mentions his affiliation with Abide isn’t super tight, but it’s been a helpful network and resourcing body. He was connected through Simon Veenstra, a long-time friend, for the videos with Synod 2025. He’s really appreciated what Abide was putting out in terms of writings and recordings to help grow in how we minister to those who are struggling with same-sex attraction.

After talking about his guest attendance at Synod, Willy asks him how Classis Huron, where Cam serves, has handled things and navigated the difficulties of these last few years. He is gracious and pastoral in his approach, while admitting there have been some struggles. He notes that Classis Huron has a church on limited suspension, a church has split, and there is some distrust among the delegates who come to their meetings. While he would like things to just be done and move on, he acknowledges, “[These churches] have their own things to sort out, their own issues to work through. So we’ll see how that goes.” More next time on his thoughts on the U.S.-Canadian differences and the challenges facing us in the years ahead.

Introduction

2025 was a pivotal year for the CRCNA. After years of difficult synods and hard decisions, we began to see the denomination settle into a new normal—one marked by confessional clarity, renewed vision, and the hard work of rebuilding trust. Throughout the year, The Messy Reformation continued to bring you conversations with pastors, leaders, and theologians who are committed to faithful reformation in the CRC.

As we look back, we wanted to share the five episodes that resonated most deeply with you this year. We compiled data from our Podcast, YouTube, and Substack to see which conversations reached the most people.

Here are the top five episodes of 2025.

#5: Episode 232: Synod 2025 — Oneness and Holiness: The Tension of a Faithful Church (Chris Ganski, Part 1)

“We [had] the broad spectrum ideologically…or theologically…and people coming at things very differently, but I was really amazed at how well we are able to come together and find…common points of agreement and move forward without a lot of fractiousness or deep division....My concern going into Synod was that it was going to be a hard pull to the right, ‘scorched earth,’ we’re going to get all of the dissent out by any means necessary with a heavy hammer, and I was ready to come in and resist that…[because] how you go about [things] matters…I tried to think…this Synod really is about how we as a church hold together the attributes of the church’s oneness and its holiness.” —Chris Ganski

Chris Ganski, pastor at City Reformed Church in Milwaukee, helped us process what happened at Synod 2025. His concern going in was a potential “scorched earth” approach. What he witnessed was something more nuanced: delegates working to affirm accountability while honoring the integrity of our institutions.

#4: Episode 210: The State of the CRCNA Following Synod 2024 (Jason Ruis, Part 1)

“If we’re going to survive as a denomination, we have to lean out the bureaucracy that’s grown up…One of the benefits of doing that is that it forces us to have some really hard conversations about who we are…and what should a denomination do...If you could only have one denominational agency, what would they be, and what would they do?…Think of how effective we could be–instead of having all of our energy and resources trickling off into all these tributaries…we’d just have one river heading in one direction.” — Jason Ruis

We started 2025 with an honest assessment of where the denomination stood. The picture was more encouraging than many expected: most classes are aligned with Synod 2024’s decisions, only about 3% of churches were in the process of disaffiliating, and denominational staff were leaning into the decisions rather than softening them. This episode also named the challenges ahead—including a coming pastoral shortage and the hard work of rebuilding trust.

#3: Episode 227: Synod 2025 — Living Into Our Decisions & Rebuilding Trust (Chad Steenwyk & Aaron Vriesman)

“Don’t fret. This is the Lord’s church. He’s going to build it. Synods rise and fall, but the Lord will remain forever and remain steadfast. I would also just mention the importance of prayer. I think that prayer is much more powerful than we even realize. I would say that one person praying is much more powerful than a person being a delegate at Synod and casting a vote. The Lord can work in hearts and minds in ways that we cannot. Let’s not underestimate the importance of praying for Synod, the Christian Reformed Church, the delegates, and God’s leading in all of this.” —Aaron Vriesman

Chad and Aaron joined us the week before Synod to discuss what lay ahead. After years of synods with 70+ overtures, this year brought only 29—a sign that the denomination is settling into a new normal. The conversation centered on what it means to live into our decisions rather than relitigate them, and our hope for a denomination that is unashamedly Reformed about its identity. This episode generated more engagement than any other this year.

#2: Episode 228: Synod 2025 — The Changing Face of CRC Leadership

“There’s always this kind of uneasiness, and I just want to encourage people to realize that the denomination has shifted significantly…The leadership at Synod has changed for sure and I think that’s going to keep filtering up into the rest of the denomination. So be at ease.” — Jason Ruis

Released right as Synod 2025 was convening, this episode explored the significant leadership transitions happening across the denomination. It became our top-performing YouTube video of the year. It seems like our listeners wanted clarity on who is leading, where things are headed, and what it means for local churches.

#1: Episode 211: The CRC We’re Fighting For (Jason Ruis, Part 2)

“In two to five years, we dream that the CRCNA would be a confessionally-grounded, unified, and mission-focused denomination. We dream that it will be a place where pastors confidently preach the gospel, members grow in discipleship and joy, and churches thrive as vibrant witnesses for Christ. We dream of a denomination that embodies courageous leadership, empowers local churches, and passes the faith on to the next generation. We dream that the CRCNA will be known for its faithfulness to God and to His Word. And because we dream these things, we get out there and we keep fighting the good fight in this messy reformation.” — Jason Ruis

This became our most-viewed episode of the year and it was focused on vision. After four years of asking guests about their dreams for the CRC, this episode laid out what we’ve been hearing: a confessionally united church, a denomination that prioritizes discipleship, courageous leadership, and a renewed focus on mission. The response to this video shows that people are hungry for that vision. We need to keep casting it over and over again as we move into this next phase of reformation.

Thank You

The Lord has been good to us this year. We're grateful for the guests who shared their wisdom, the churches pursuing faithful reformation, and the God who remains sovereign over all of it. Most of all, we're thankful for you—the pastors, elders, deacons, and church members who listen, share, and keep showing up week after week.

Keep fighting the good fight in this Messy Reformation! Soli Deo Gloria!

“I believe wholeheartedly that our denomination is in a good place…I also believe that the future is bright for the CRC…We’re in a unique place of foundational development, understanding what it means to be confessional…I believe that my seminary experience aided that, to help develop that importance for me.” —Kurtis Ritsema

Summary of This Episode

Jason and Willy are back on this episode of The Messy Reformation with Rev. Kurt Ritsema, senior pastor at Bethel CRC in Waupun, WI. If there’s a theme for this episode, it’s the finitude or limitedness of pastors. They continue sharing that most pastors don’t excel in every gift, and yet you can often look at the life of a congregation and identify that God provided specific pastors with different giftings for different seasons in the life of that church.

Willy asks about Kurt’s work in Classis Wisconsin, which has been pretty limited other than allowing his name to stand for synod and that brings us to talking about the denomination. It’s encouraging to hear him share, “I believe wholeheartedly that our denomination is in a good place…I also believe that the future is bright for the CRC…We’re in a unique place of foundational development, understanding what it means to be confessional…I believe that my seminary experience aided that, to help develop that importance for me.” Going forward, he sees us needing to help people understand what that means—what do we stand for.

Jason and Kurt also talk about going forward in the present cultural moment. Kurt mentions with the increased use of AI, we have to remain in God’s Word, because it’s the only way we’ll continue growing. Jason puts forth that our identity needs to come out of the confessional grounding. He shares how teenagers he’s ministering among desire firm truths. Information is so widely and cheaply available today, but truth is weighty, especially old and lasting truths.

They also spend some time talking about nervousness that many pastors share they’ve experienced in the pulpit. Willy asks, “Do you think the pressure…exists and some of the anxiety…ensues because it’s the one place that God has promised infallibly that he will work and is going to work?” Is it not just the pursuit of perfection but for it to be the words of Christ? Kurt shares it is a lot to handle and remember, but Jason points out there is also a weightiness in pride and not wanting to look stupid.

Kurt’s main message to ministers is: “Stay the course. Keep doing what you’re doing, and the Spirit will use what [he] needs to use.” He also reminds us to be engaged with people, and remember that we’re not only preachers but pastors. His closing words to the broader audience are that we can’t just be Sunday Christians, in part because our world needs us to be more than that. Be looking for how you can “be Christ” wherever and with whoever your week brings you into contact with.

“[I found myself] called to more than what I think I’m called to…I think my calling to youth ministry was very specific at the time because I felt it was a very practical thing…youth ministry prepared me for seminary and for…going into senior pastorate work that I didn’t think I was prepared for.” —Kurtis Ritsema

Summary of This Episode

Welcome back to The Messy Reformation podcast as Jason and Willy are joined this week by Rev. Kurt Ritsema, senior pastor at Bethel CRC in Waupun, WI. Getting to know Kurt, he’s a lifelong member of the CRC, a son of a pastor, and grew up in central Iowa and west Michigan. “Home” was Pella. Despite not wanting to be a pastor while he was growing up, he spent over 20 years in youth ministry that shaped and directed him to eventually answer the call to congregational ministry.

Jason backs the conversation up to have Kurt share how the call to ministry happened and how he ended up pursuing seminary. He shares that a girl is what drew him to attend Calvin University, and while that relationship ended shortly after, Calvin sparked the desire to go into youth ministry. He then went to Kuyper College (then Reformed Bible College. Kurt shares he learned a lot over these two decades, including some bumps in the road with how he made decisions early on. Part of his time in youth ministry was full-time but others he was working bi-vocationally in construction and with a furniture store. He and Jason talk a bit about what that’s like with learning to balance one’s passion and enjoyment but also energy and hours.

Kurt’s willingness to go to seminary came out of a trip to Israel with Ray VanderLaan, from which he found himself “…called to more than what I think I’m called to…I think my calling to youth ministry was very specific at the time because I felt it was a very practical thing…I think my calling to seminary was something that I almost felt was impractical,” as it pushed him out of his comfort zone. Due to life circumstances, he spent his first year as a residential student at Calvin Theological Seminary before completing the rest of his degree in the distance program. What he ended up learning about himself was “…youth ministry prepared me for seminary and for…going into senior pastorate work that I didn’t think I was prepared for.”

The rest of the episode focuses on how his CTS experience was and what he wished there was more of. He went to Calvin Sem because it made sense with wanting to go into ministry in the Christian Reformed Church. While he enjoyed both residential and distance paths, he does share that it’s a different experience. You get the same end, but the experience is different. He wished there was more development in pastoral care. He and Jason talk a bit about how seminaries, including Calvin, are in this stage of trying to figure out how to keep the bar high, but still encourage people to enroll, as well as discerning what seminary is for. They talk about the need for on-the-job or internship training, and Willy points out that it does seem there are things “better caught than taught,”—that one can learn from an experienced veteran rather than a book. Kurt also shares that there’s more to grow in when you’re in the pastorate. Often one is a stronger pastor or preacher, and that doesn’t mean you can’t be good at both, but development has to happen once they’re in a church.

“I would say without any hesitation that the most urgent need in the Christian Church today is true preaching; and as it is the greatest and the most urgent need in the Church, it is obviously the greatest need of the world also.” —Martin Lloyd-Jones

One of our goals at Messy Reformation is to highlight the good work happening across the CRC. This conversation from Classis Minnkota is exactly that. Pastors Lee and CJ represent nearly 90 combined years of faithful gospel ministry, and their wisdom, humility, and love for the church shines through every word. We’re grateful for men like these who have devoted their lives to preaching the Word and shepherding God’s people. Watch, learn, and enjoy.

Summary of This Conversation

Between them, Pastor Leroy and Pastor CJ represent nearly ninety years of faithful gospel ministry in the Christian Reformed Church. At a recent Classis Minnkota meeting, these two seasoned shepherds sat down for a candid conversation about the past, present, and future of pastoral ministry. What emerged was a compelling call to reformation, faithfulness, and confidence in the power of God’s Word.

The discussion opened with a striking portrait of pastoral ministry from the biography of William Hamilton Burns, a Scottish pastor who served his congregation for over fifty years. Burns “preached the word, dispensed the sacred supper, warned the careless, comforted the sorrowing,” and did so “with a calm, serious, cheerful, loving diligence that was the fruit of faith and prayer, always at his work, and always happy in it.” This vision of devoted, Word-centered ministry set the tone for the entire conversation.

Both pastors reflected on the influences that shaped their callings. They pointed to godly parents, faithful churches, wise professors, and mentors who invested in them. Pastor CJ recalled his grandfather taking him to the basement after sermons to offer correction and encouragement. Both emphasized that the Holy Spirit uses the kindling of faithful instruction and eventually “lights it,” with the church continuing to “fan into flame” the calling to ministry.

When asked about priorities, the answer was unequivocal: the Word of God must remain central. Pastor Lee insisted, “I’m first of all a minister of the word,” whether in the pulpit, at a hospital bedside, or in premarital counseling. Pastor CJ echoed this, noting that pastors should view all of life through the lens of “that preaches, this will preach.” Alongside Word-centeredness, they stressed prayer and personal integrity. Spurgeon’s habit of approaching the pulpit with the prayer “I believe in the Holy Spirit” reminded them that ministry is impossible apart from divine help. And the call to “watch your doctrine and your life closely” from 1 Timothy 4:16 remains essential, for hypocrisy is a major barrier to the gospel, especially among young people.

The conversation then turned to changes in the world and the church since these men entered ministry in 1970 and 1992 respectively. While cultural assumptions about biblical literacy and morality have shifted dramatically, the fundamental need remains the same: people need the gospel. Pastor Lee warned that many confuse the gospel with “being good,” a dangerous conflation that obscures the message of grace. Yet the pastors also noted encouraging changes, such as greater lay involvement in worship, renewed commitment to the confessions among younger believers, and a rising generation eager to engage in missions both locally and globally.

Looking ahead, the pastors expressed genuine hope. They see young men with renewed hunger for the gospel and the Reformed confessions. They see young women answering the call to missions, traveling to Peru, Africa, and flood-ravaged communities in North Carolina. They see local churches becoming more intentional about hospitality, welcoming even a motorcycle club full of bikers who showed up one Sunday morning on their Harleys.

But they also sounded notes of sober warning. The challenges facing the CRC are real. The regulative principle of worship, the question of women’s ordination, and the broader cultural pressure to conform require careful attention to Scripture. Pastor CJ quoted Proverbs 23:23, “Buy the truth and sell it not,” and urged the denomination to humbly reconsider where it may have strayed. “The Bible cannot say yes and no on the same thing,” he said. “That’s contradictory. That’s dishonoring to the inspiration of scripture.” True reformation, they agreed, must begin in individual hearts and extend to the whole church.

The conversation closed with a practical challenge: How do we raise up the next generation of pastors? Pray to the Lord of the harvest. Budget for seminarians. Include the need for pastors in congregational prayer. Invite young men to shadow pastors and attend elders meetings. Create space for them to preach in nursing homes and jails. Train women for the vital work of teaching and mentoring other women. Welcome strangers with open arms. Be the kind of church that displays the marks of the true church: faithful preaching, proper administration of the sacraments, and loving church discipline.

Quoting Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Scott Muilenburg concluded, “The most urgent need in the Christian church today is true preaching. And as it is the greatest and most urgent need in the church, it is obviously the greatest need of the world also.” After ninety combined years of ministry, Pastors Lee and CJ would say amen to that, and so should we.

“…Listen to preaching and to the faithful ministers that we have in the CRC…Listen to this podcast (thanks Richard!)…We have so many good resources—ministers, podcasts, our confessions…This renewed love for the prominence of the confessions is awesome!” —Richard Britton III

Summary of This Episode

Willy and Dan are back this week with Rev. Richard Britton III, pastor at Beckwith Hills CRC in Grand Rapids, MI. The episode returns us to Richard sharing about his involvement in recent synods, particularly while in Classis Muskegon. He and the Trinity CRC Council felt convicted by God’s Word and what the church has always believed about sexuality, but there was a church in their classis that was pushing against that and others that seemed ambivalent. He also saw what the organization All One Body was posting of affirming churches in the CRC. Initially, he wrote an overture calling for repentance. That was unanimously supported by Trinity’s Council but tabled at Classis, so the church sent it to Synod on its own.

In 2024, he appealed to Synod the seating of delegates from a now-departed-from-the-CRC congregation. When initially brought up in Classis Muskegon, there weas mixed discussion on the floor and Synod ultimately did not sustain the appeal. However, he and Willy both recognize the importance of standing upon biblical convictions and pointing out incongruencies of signing the Covenant for Officebearers when teaching otherwise. Willy shares how some of the work that the Synod 2025 Church Order Advisory Committee did was to help clean this up.

As Richard continues to grow in ministry, he’s continuing to learn the need to trust God and his provision. He speaks multiple times in the episode about the importance of prayer in his life. He’s also grateful to stand with other leaders who have stood firmly on God’s Word, and seeing discipline for the sake of correction and restoration being practiced.

Dan asks what it’s like to be in and around Grand Rapids with what’s gone on over the last few years. Richard shares that he sees integrity being practiced—in churches that have left, in the steps that those remaining in Classis Grand Rapids East are taking, as well as in Classis Grand Rapids North where he now serves. He witnessed church visitors take seriously their task to call a church and its leaders to repentance and expressing the desire for them to stay and be restored.

We also talk a bit about Calvin Theological Seminary and note the mixed feelings that are out there. There are some, including Richard, who wish CTS would take stronger and more public stances on and with the direction of the CRC. Dan notes part of the response from the seminary has been that there’s a faculty statement written a few years ago citing agreement with the Covenant for Officebearers despite faculty not being required to sign that. From his personal experience, Richard acknowledges he has experienced some solid professors over the last ten years, and yet CTS students have been placed in affirming churches. That’s a puzzling thing! Willy reminds us that the ship is turning, but it is slow.

Dan also asks what Richard finds hopeful about the CRC. He highlights the value of 222 Discipleship and relationships that has encouraged. He’s experienced a lot of faithful pastors, congregations, and elders and deacons. We have good leaders that he is grateful to minister alongside of. For his final words, he encourages our listeners to seek that out. “…Listen to preaching and to the faithful ministers that we have in the CRC…Listen to this podcast (thanks Richard!)…We have so many good resources—ministers, podcasts, our confessions…This renewed love for the prominence of the confessions is awesome!”

“Another thing that hit was the HSR. One of our elders had a really great insight. He said, “If the affirming ideology can infiltrate a small town rural church like Trinity CRC in Fremont, it can infiltrate anywhere.” For us, thankfully, our council was of one mind on the issue, holding the biblical position. But we did have some members who were not of the same mind on the issue, and that was hard because ultimately our church in Classis Muskegon did have to stand up for our biblical view of marriage and sexuality. That was not popular among a few in our church. We had a few who left—some big givers—and that hurt us.” —Richard Britton III

Summary of This Episode

This week on the Messy Reformation, Willy and Dan are joined by Rev. Richard Britton III, the pastor of Beckwith Hills CRC on the northeast side of Grand Rapids, MI, where he was called earlier this year. This is the second church he’s served after pastoring at Trinity CRC in Fremont, MI until they closed in 2024.

Richard kicks off the episode sharing his unique upbringing. His dad was a pastor in a not-yet Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) congregation in rural Illinois. Eventually they moved up to Brookfield, WI, outside of Milwaukee, where he had his first contact with the Christian Reformed Church at Brookfield CRC. He really appreciated the discipleship he received there and growth through CRU and Geneva Campus Ministry at the University of Wisconsin. While he looked at other seminaries, he chose Calvin Theological Seminary having had friends at Calvin University as well as attending a conference at CTS on missional living and Scripture that really struck a cord with him along with the faculty.

As mentioned before, Richard’s first church was one that closed, which is a unique experience for many pastors but especially one’s first church. Dan asks how that went and how it formed him. Richard shares devotion to prayer and having encouraging elders were essential to that process. He saw God’s provisions there despite the hard times, including the graciousness of the congregants who gave him room to grow as a pastor. There were several facets to them losing large parts of their identity, but the council was of one mind, and that helped through the process.

A significant piece of his time, though, was coming shortly after COVID-19, which set in when Richard was in his final semester of seminary. Dan asks what that experience was like at the seminary, and if there was any teaching/training about how to deal with such a situation when one is pastoring. Richard reflects on how virtual learning made the best of things and he was grateful that CTS had the technology it did to help that, but he was bummed to not be able to complete certain courses in the classroom. There wasn’t much advice given, and Dan acknowledges even as a pastor in that time and looking at various churches, it’s hard to give the one-size-fits-all application. Perhaps it was a good thing to not give advice as there were lessons that might have been shared in those days that looking back weren’t great.

Willy ends the episode pointing us to next time when Richard will share his involvement in Synods and bringing things from Trinity pertaining to his former classis and where he hopes things continue to go in the CRCNA.

“Stay excited, stay humble, and slightly terrified. But…may we always get to a place where we can rejoice in what the Lord is doing (Philippians 4)…Let’s stay faithful; let’s have a lot of fun.” —Jim Hollendoner

Summary of This Episode

Jason and Willy are joined again by Rev. Jim Hollendoner, lead pastor of Munster Church (IN). The episode begins with a continuation of the conversation around the perceived pastor shortage and generational differences. Jim proposes one of the reasons behind less people pursuing the pastorate is that when people see pastors today, often it’s connected to a scandal rather than being a position of honor. It’s not just the internal call—“I think God is calling me to this,” but the external call is muddier—not as many people are encouraging others to pursue this. They both identify one of the dangers of lowering the quality or requirements for entering ministry to get more in the door may continue to show people we just need bodies rather than nurturing qualified and equipped leaders.

Jim takes us to a different perspective than just lamenting there’s not a lot of or enough pastors. What if we need to take a hard look at our churches? He proposes doing an internal SWOT analysis or something like it that can help a church or even a classis understand themselves better. It may not be the case everywhere, but in densely populated CRC areas, should we be moving towards closing some churches and having fewer but stronger ones? “The conversation before ‘How do we get more pastors?’ is ‘How do we church better? How do we church more unified?’” He’s not naïve; he recognizes these are hard conversations. They deal with heritage, legacy, ecclesiastical failure as well as ecclesiastical pride. As he talks about later in the episode, though, it’s possible that the CRC might be better served by looking at these things as part of revitalization before we get into seeking to plant more churches.

All this pruning and uncertainty sounds difficult, so Willy asks how Jim would counsel someone considering and looking to enter ministry in the CRC. Jim offers the actions of listening, learning, and presence. Wherever a person ends up, one of the best pieces of advice that Jim has received and passes along is to be patient, not rushing into change too quickly, and learn the context and the people you’re ministering to and among. Many of our congregations have scars—they’ve been through hardships that affect how they see and do things. Don’t ignore that. Both him and Jason point out, there’s a lot of trust and credibility that can be earned through those relationships and moments.

Willy follows that up by asking what mistakes Jim sees in his own ministry. Jim doesn’t shy away from admitting there have been some. One mistake is thinking he had people following on, only to move forward and realize he was going alone or not bringing others along. He points out that with many things, you’ll have the range of early to mid to late, even to never adopters; don’t forget to bring (or drag) them along. He’s also seen himself make ministry about himself rather than Jesus, and over-worry about his departure. Finally he shares that he’s learned you shouldn’t “overgrip” things; let others help you. That’s a lesson he’s found with interns especially—they can be excited and want to do things a certain way by themselves, but they shouldn’t neglect the long-term involvement and willingness of partners.

As the episode is wrapping up, Jason invites Jim to share where he sees the CRC needing to go. He identifies the current reality as still being in reaction-mode. “We have defined our identity in an identity-less ship for 30 years prior to that.” He describes how boundaries have been found and direction has been given over the last few years, but there are still some “rivers” (agendas) that may be different from the main “river” that the CRC-identity is going on. As mentioned before, this is where he sees us needing to do some denominational revitalization, not just jumping into church planting and assuming we’re ready for that. His final words are encouragement to “Stay excited, stay humble, and slightly terrified. But…may we always get to a place where we can rejoice in what the Lord is doing (Philippians 4)…Let’s stay faithful; let’s have a lot of fun.”

“I never want to go to a surgeon that only took online classes, so why in the world are we allowing the doctors of the church…the shepherds of the church to lessen their training…Our churches’ demands haven’t changed as far as the amount of demands, it’s just how they demand it.” —Jim Hollendoner

Summary of This Episode

Welcome back to The Messy Reformation podcast where Jason and Willy are joined on this episode by Rev. Jim Hollendoner, the lead pastor at Munster Church, where he’s served for seven years. Prior to that, he began in ministry in non-denominational churches before coming to the CRC as an associate pastor at Crown Point CRC. All of his ministry has been in the Illiana region. Jim shares his “denominational mutt” upbringing, which included being in a Lutheran church that also use the Heidelberg Catechism and Westminster Confession. He spent time in a UCC congregation with “a healthy youth group in a dying church.” He benefited from the ministry of Camp Manitoqua as well as Baptist-background higher education.

Unsurprisingly, Jason and Willy both had questions after his introduction, and Jason probes into what is meant by a healthy youth group in a dying church. Jim shares that for the season that he was in that youth group, it had mission and vision as well a pastor who was teaching the Bible and foundations of the faith, while the UCC was leading the church further from the gospel and seeking to make them a flagship in that denomination for God still speaking. While it was exciting and he was grateful to be in the youth group, he would later learn it’s not often a good thing when you have that much difference in the ministry of a single church. He does credit that time, though, as being significant in his development, and helped shape his calling to begin ministry working with youth.

They also spend some time talking about the influence of and differences between his Baptist/non-denominational time and what he has experienced in the CRC. A lot of that touches on the themes of hospitality that have been discussed in previous episodes. An important part of ministry in the 21st century, which reflects the historic church, is to genuinely care about other people and interact with them, not just host and expect them to pick everything up on their own.

Jason brings up the pastor shortage of the CRC at the end of this episode and asks Jim to share what he thinks is behind that. Jim shares one of his interests is “generational theory,” and summarizes part of a talk from the 2019 Global Leadership Summit. Among Millenials, there’s a split between those who act more like Boomers and those who are shaped and defined by the internet and what it offers. Many seminaries, around the years of 2010-2015 and after, tried to adapt to that. Instead of being a proving ground of one’s call to ministry, they forfeited their identity and began providing an education that’s wide but not deep. He recognizes appropriately the demands of the pastorate are high and require solid training, but seminary and internship expectations aren’t meeting that need. He compares it to doctors, “I never want to go to a surgeon that only took online classes, so why in the world are we allowing the doctors of the church…the shepherds of the church to lessen their training…Our churches’ demands haven’t changed as far as the amount of demands, it’s just how they demand it.” He and Jason acknowledge part of why burnout and atrophy and deteriorating numbers is happening is because we’re not training people for longevity. Come back next week for the rest of this conversation.

“This is the kind of leadership that I’m looking to help develop here in the [CRC]—guys who cannot wait to share the good…news of the gospel [and] the full counsel of God’s Word as we’ve been able to express it so well in Reformed theology.” —Chad Workhoven

“The church, in a sense, gets the leaders that it…deserves…If we don’t treat these as important positions and don’t value them highly or esteem them for their work, as Paul says…we shouldn’t be surprised if people who do have gifts for leadership don’t take or consider carefully a call to either ministry or serving in another way.” —Jeff Weima

Summary of This Episode

Jason and Willy are back this week for our Equipping Officebearers roundtable with Dr. Jeff Weima (Calvin Theological Seminary) and Rev. Chad Werkhoven (Worthington CRC). Chad extends on Dr. Weima’s application of 1 Thessalonians 2 by highlighting the delight and readiness expressed by the apostle Paul about sharing the gospel. “This is the kind of leadership that I’m looking to help develop here in the [CRC]—guys who cannot wait to share the good…news of the gospel [and] the full counsel of God’s Word as we’ve been able to express it so well in Reformed theology.”

Jason invites Jeff and Chad to reflect on if most officebearers have this imagery in their minds about what they are called to do. Jeff admits likely not, but he puts the blame on the lack of equipment and orientation for new officebearers historically. Leadership takes training, and it’s unfair to call people without equipping them. Chad builds on that, sharing anecdotally, when you show people how you’re going to train them and what the expectations are, while it may seem like the extensiveness is a deterrent, it’s actually appreciated for its clarity.

Playing devil’s advocate, Jason proposes the pushback of “but it’s already hard to find people willing to serve.” Jeff shares this isn’t about easy or quick fixes. However, he believes we need to elevate the importance of all officebearers. One thing done in the past is heightened visibility of those serving in these roles. He puts it bluntly: “The church, in a sense, gets the leaders that it…deserves…If we don’t treat these as important positions and don’t value them highly or esteem them for their work, as Paul says…we shouldn’t be surprised if people who do have gifts for leadership don’t take or consider carefully a call to either ministry or serving in another way.” Chad offers a plug for the Promote and Defend training that he’s put together that is meant to help incoming officebearers understand the commitment being made when signing the Covenant for Officebearers. He does point out, though, we need an attitude shift from people serving in a way that is begrudgingly “I have to do this” to a joyful “I get to do this!” Those of us serving need to model a proper attitude and pray the Spirit would fill us and others with a desire to serve.

Jason then brings up, how can we help each other? From the seminary side of things, CTS is in the business of leadership development, which Dr. Weima reminds is both providing skills and forming good character. We see instances of lack of skills but high character and plenty of skills but poor character—forming both is part of what CTS seeks to do. He also reminds all officebearers that auditing classes in-person or online is an affordable option. Chad sees leaders who are creating content needing to work together, but also doing the work of helping raise up men who are willing to be licensed to exhort across our churches.

Willy asks what each of them would say to encourage leaders to raise up leaders. Jeff calls us not to underestimate leading by example. We can empower by allowing others to shadow us and to mentor them well—the time is worth it. Chad encourages those interested in teaching to do it, and to use the Confessions as their curriculum. As they head into their final words, Jeff encourages those contemplating being an officebearer to know and trust that God has more than enough power to equip those he calls. If you’re willing to pray that he would use you, be willing to be used! Chad closes by reminding us of the encouragement in 1 Peter 5 that we are called to be willing and there is the promise of an “unfading crown of glory when Christ returns”—what more can motivate us?