Episode 124: Conversation with Michael Saville (Part 2)

“I think we’re coming into a season of life and culture where we’re going to have to train our own hearts and our congregations to be able to see the reproach of Christ as a greater reward than the fleeting pleasures of sin. We have to be able to train our own hearts that way. Faithfulness to Christ is going to, in this world, not see fruit…it’s going to cause shame and consternation. The only way we can actually see that as a greater wealth than the worldly rewards is for us to look beyond and say, ‘…This is earning an eternal heavenly reward with Christ.’ We have to long more to hear Christ—or the Father—say to us on that day, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant,’ than to hear the world say that to us.” -Jason Ruis

Summary of This Episode

On this episode of the Messy Reformation, we pick up Jason and Willy’s conversation with Rev. Michael Saville, pastor of East Palmyra CRC in Palmyra, New York. Returning to the idea of collectively writing a new confession, Willy brings up an issue that may be a stumbling block: concupiscence. “Historically, Dutch Reformed and Presbyterian [traditions] have kind of struggled with full agreement to [this] issue…internal inclinations and dispositions as sin.” Will this cause some to leave the table before we can even begin? The group noted Classis Southeast U.S. has an overture that does get into these matters; however, it’s difficult when our denomination as a whole is struggling with the basic argument of whether homosexuality is sin or if we should be affirming. That debate needs to be concluded in order to move on.

One of the things proponents of traditional marriage have heard is that we’re not focused on pastoral care to people, but that’s part of what we want to get to by firming up our beliefs. There are great resources and voices, like Rosaria Butterfield and Christopher Yuan, that we can look to provide help, but we need to get through Synod 2023 and hopefully end the basic debate. Michael summarizes it well, “Our churches need a clear word on this matter, and we in our churches need to be able to speak with clarity. Our young people need to be hearing what the Word of God says, and they need the clarity so that they can navigate the issues that they’re confronting around them.”

Addressing the Better Together group—it doesn’t work. Michael recognizes, “If you’re telling a person that their sin is not sin, then you’re denying them the call to repentance and the forgiveness available in the gospel for their sin.” Willy points out that their opening presupposition—the lens through which they see things—is that this is not a salvific issue. “[If] we don’t agree on that…how can we agree on any other matter concerning human sexuality going forward.” The group spends some time framing the discussion through a different issue—infant baptism. “If a CRC decides they’re not going to baptize infants, why would they want to stay in the [CRC]?...I don’t think anybody would say, ‘Well, you should just stay’…Yet on [the homosexuality/unchastity] issue, it’s like, ‘We disagree with the [CRC], but we should be able to stay and keep disagreeing …It’s craziness.” 

How do we get hear? Jason proposes part of the problem is that the CRC has been trying to throw out their mission while saving the institution (or trying to survive). “But if we keep living on mission—yes, we’re gonna anger some people and some people are gonna say, ‘We don’t want anything to do with that,’ but other people are gonna say, ‘That’s exactly what we want. We want to be a part of that,’ and they’ll come in…If the CRC would just stand and proudly say, ‘Here’s who we are,’ and if we could get some leaders…that are willing to stand up and say, ‘This is who we are, this is who we are not,’ and are willing to anger some people maybe, I think the CRC would start to flourish again because we would finally be on mission.” Michael points out that the denomination isn’t an end in itself, “It’s Christ’s. Our purpose is the glory of Christ and the good of his people, and we want to see our churches doing well and the whole institution of the CRC. The purpose is to serve people and to serve the cause of Christ and his gospel.” 

Jason offers an application of knowing and living out the mission to local churches, which leads Willy to remind us of the connection of faithfulness and bearing fruit. “…Where faithfulness is to be found, fruit will always follow…Fruitfulness and orthodoxy will be the door into the church—not just for young people, [but] people in any generation and any kind of viewpoint from any [and] all tribes and tongues and nations like Revelation says. So be faithful in what you’re called to do and fruit will follow.” Jason adds the word “eventually” to that—even if it’s heavenly fruit that we don’t see in this lifetime.

Before Michael’s closing thoughts, Jason made this cultural observation: “I think we’re coming into a season of life and culture where we’re going to have to train our own hearts and our congregations to be able to see the reproach of Christ as a greater reward than the fleeting pleasures of sin. We have to be able to train our own hearts that way. Faithfulness to Christ is going to, in this world, not see fruit…it’s going to cause shame and consternation. The only way we can actually see that as a greater wealth than the worldly rewards is for us to look beyond and say, ‘…This is earning an eternal heavenly reward with Christ.’ We have to long more to hear Christ—or the Father—say to us on that day, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant,’ than to hear the world say that to us.”

For delegates to Synod 2023, Michael recommends enjoying the experience and meeting with people! Yet while they hear emotional speeches and pleas from all sides, remember your responsibility is to hold the Word of God and be courageous. When it comes to discipline, do not do so in anger (not executing wrath), but do so in love, with the mindset of keeping some from running headlong into sin, and call them back to the faith. If discipline is needed, follow what God’s Word requires, and have courage. His final word for listeners, especially pastors, is provide sound instruction, helping to shore up doctrinal weaknesses. Remember there is no neutral ground between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan—our people need a strong biblical foundation to help navigate this life.