Episode 242: Church Roundtable — Beyond Methods to True Ecclesiology — Jared Michelson, Chris Ganski (Part 1)

“I basically think many of us have an idea of the church, that the church basically operates on our own steam, that maybe we need God to elect us and save us, but after that, we're now wholly natural again. And now it's up to us to communicate the gospel really well, to create really excellent services, to do all of the things that will allow the church to flourish…One of the key images from the Reformation is the church is a creature of the Word. It is being produced by the life-giving work of Christ mediated to us by the Spirit…I think this deep pragmatism, which we see in contemporary evangelicalism, is actually the product of a deep spiritual malformation where we're increasingly thinking of the world as separate from God.” —Jared Michelson

Summary of This Episode

Welcome to the first of the Messy Reformation’s Roundtable episodes as Jason and Dan sit down with Rev. Chris Ganski, recent guest and the pastor at City Reformed Church (Milwaukee, WI), and Dr. Jared Michelson, who is completing his time as a research fellow at the University of St. Andrews School of Divinity and was approved by Synod to teach systematic theology at Calvin Theological Seminary starting in 2026. Jared also has experience serving as a pastor in Scotland. Following up on our conference earlier this year, the topic for this discussion is Reformed ecclesiology, or the doctrine of the church. Jared sets the stage nicely for why we’re having these discussions and who we hope to include: “If theology doesn’t work in a church, if it doesn’t make sense in real life, then something has gone horrifically wrong.” Our beliefs should resource what we do in our congregations, in peoples’ lives, and in society.

The majority of this episode is framed by what Jason kicks off as the “negative question”: “What are some of [the] misunderstandings that you’re seeing in the church…or in the Christian Reformed Church today about what it means to be a Reformed church or even…a church in general?” The conversation gets deep quickly. Jared proposes, “There’s this…duality in the Reformation between viewing the church as the communion of saints and viewing the church as mother; and they want to preserve both.” He identifies most churches today going the communion of saints route–-we’re a body of people with a relationship with God through Christ. That along with not being dependent on a hierarchy often comes at the expense of church as mother, which he says captures the idea of “standing in a tradition…something that has been handed down.” Where this goes for many contemporary believers is, “...The church just exists to help us in our private relationship with God”--a very consumeristic mindset. 

Chris puts forth his idea for “part of the Reformed vision of the church” as “...how we live out our union with Christ in a public way.” He offers the terms of some thinking of the church in functional ways while others think of it ontologically. To just choose one, especially just functional, and neglect the ontological is part of what he sees as a root problem. What does that mean? To think about the church functionally is just to think about what the church does. To think about the church ontologically is to think about what it is and why it is. 

Jason asks how that shift happened, and Chris points back to seeds being sown in the Protestant Reformation. When we look at the ecumenical creeds and Reformed confessions, we see both aspects. What is the church? It is the one holy catholic and apostolic Church (Nicene Creed). What does the church do? He points to the marks of a true church (Belgic Confession Article 29). In his mind, the Reformers had a deep appreciation for ontology that the practices by which you would identify a “gospel-centered church” or a “true chu

rch” flowed from that. Modernity, though, has led many to just think about the functions. Jared fleshes that out by proposing that among Reformed Christians, some see God’s work as being in election and salvation, but afterwards the church just operates on its own steam. Instead of seeing ourselves as continuing to participate and cooperate with God, some think they just need to do all the things that will help or make the church flourish. This can ignore the ontological reality that “...the church is a creature of the Word.” Jason ties in the shortcomings he sees in the church growth/church-as-business culture, and Chris adds how in a secular society, what tends to work in places that still “have” Christendom is not what works everywhere. 

Thinking about the current confessional focus of the CRC, Dan asks a question that intends to get at if or how the Reformed confessions have a role in an increasingly secularized society. The participants agree there is. Jared sees the confessions as giving answers to deep, existential questions. Especially for our covenant children, we have something rich to offer them but that also can carry into how and what we talk about in loving our neighbors and showing faith in real life situations. He brings up something that is becoming increasingly foreign–sitting down at a table for a family meal. To include neighbors in that setting can be a beautiful thing that surprises them but also provides good opportunities to talk about matters of faith. Chris adds that what we find about the early church in Scripture testifies to what human flourishing looks like and giving dignity. Part of what the early church did was articulate what they believed; the confessions continue to offer us that. So they continue to be able to have a place in preaching, catechizing, and discipling, though it may be a slower process than we’d like.

There’s a lot more to be gleaned by listening to the episode. Next week, the conversation turns more to the positive vision of what the church is, is for, and is doing well.